"Khora" -- non-placeable place, the third genus -- is a reading of Plato's notion of that "mother", "nurse", "the Receiver" that gives place for all that "takes place": A placing, a positing of displacement and differance, a displacement by way of oscillation between two types of oscillation: the double exclusion(neither/nor) and the participation(both this and that)
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Re: Derrida's idea of Khora what do you think?
Mon, May 24, 2004 - 4:16 PMMark, what is the benefit of positing 'a placing, a positing of displacement and differance'? I'm open to the possibility that there is some usefulness to this term. In the abstract I can't see it.
I have read quite a bit of Derrida and it has not been wasted time, but as I age I lose patience for this type of vernacular. In other times and places, there have been whole generations of philosophers who strove to communicate their ideas clearly. -
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Re: Derrida's idea of Khora what do you think?
Mon, May 24, 2004 - 5:12 PMSo do you now see Derrida as a waste of time. Do you now see him as just unclear. I think the real idea of displacement is very interesting and Khora most of all explains some of the metaphysical foundations of current philosophy. I was interested in what people had thought of it if they had read it before. I think it is hard to get beyond that idea. How does one get beyond deconstruction. It isn't irrelavent. Most philosophy can be torn apart by this application. What philosophy has gotten beyond it really. I don't think Deleuze really does. -
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Re: Derrida's idea of Khora what do you think?
Mon, May 24, 2004 - 5:31 PMI don't see Derrida as a waste of time. I do have problems with his tangled prose, though, and I think his host of immitators are completely worthless. I despise the intellectual oxen who ape Derrida's prose in a vain effort to recapitulate his discoveries as if they were saying something new.
The worst offenders are those who name their papers "Re-Membering the Political Body" and crap like that. To the gallows with them!
What is interesting in the idea of Khora, and in displacement? What does it explain?
"Most philosophy can be torn apart by this application."
I totally disagree with this. Just because language leaves a trace doesn't mean that it has nothing to say.
I also believe that the function of deconstruction is not to destroy, but to illuminate. Does Plato's Pharmacy 'destroy' Plato's Phaedrus? On the contrary - it brings it to life.
Besides, critique has always been a lot easier than articulation. The real critique of philosophy is to say something in a way that is better, clearer, more illuminating.
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Re: Derrida's idea of Khora what do you think?
Tue, May 25, 2004 - 12:39 AMOf course language by the very fact it is language can only say. It also has to have something to say. The question is what can it say or can it say anything any sort of objective truth about the world. It it only because it does have a trace that it can do anything. The problem is the trace cannot be recovered and is under erasure so again we cannot even uncover the trace and never an origin. What I think is significant of the Khora is the idea that there is something that the trace is written on but that doesn't have an identity. -
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Re: Derrida's idea of Khora what do you think?
Tue, May 25, 2004 - 10:52 AMHowdy.
I appreaciate the vigor with which you are pursuing this thread, and I'm glad we can have this discussion. Thanks for your ideas!
"The question is what can it say or can it say anything any sort of objective truth about the world."
Of course this has been a central preoccupation of Western philosophy since Kant at least. Derrida is hardly unique in suggesting there are limits to our ability to fully represent the world. In fact, I would say this is commonplace.
In my opinion most statements are relatively unproblematic. I believe language operates primarily within the conventional domain of transactional usage, and as such any metaphysical distortions implicit in discursive thought have a minimal impact. It is only when we start making ontological claims that it becomes a serious problem.
"What I think is significant of the Khora is the idea that there is something that the trace is written on but that doesn't have an identity."
Does this differ substantially from Kant's noumena?
I wonder if you have any experience of Buddhist philosophy? This problem has occupied a central place in Buddhist philosophy since the second century. There is a Buddhist doctrine called the 'two truths' that seeks to come to terms with the relationship between conventional identity with a transcendental, ineffable basis. Conventionally, objects appear to us, but ultimately they lack identity.
I mention it in part because in my own reading these guys appeared with answers to a lot of questions that Derrida had raised for me.
You may possibly be interested in Bernard Faure's "Rhetoric of Immediacy". Faure is a brilliant philosopher who has written several studies on Ch'an and Zen Buddhism. He has a deep knowledge of Continental Philosophy, particularly Derrida. -
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Re: Derrida's idea of Khora what do you think?
Tue, May 25, 2004 - 6:37 PMFunny you mention Bernard Faure. I was just reading "Double Exposure". I also have studied and somewhat practice Buddhism. I am not sure I believe the Buddhist really have an answer to Derrida. although I do realize they can deal with Paradox instead of the excluded middle logic or Aristotle. I think language itself is problematic but not in a Wittgensteinian way. I know Wittgenstein write about the way language has created questions that have no answer because language has created for us abstract concepts that are only linguistic constructions and not real issues. Yet something keeps bringing me back to Derrida and the idea of Khora. I think that much like maurice blanchot writes about there is lacunas in language that are important to meaning yet hidden when we read conventionally. I think in regards to Kant the trace is nothing like the noumena. The noumena is something real not a construction I mean it is where you find God for him. I don't think Derrida is saying the trace is real it is metaphorical yet something is important not with any identity or the beingness of being the same to itself as Heidegger would say about identity A=A. That is why I find it not so simple and significant but -obviously not profound since there is no depth in text. -
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Re: Derrida's idea of Khora what do you think?
Wed, May 26, 2004 - 11:39 AMFor me, the relevance of Buddhist philosophy to Derrida's thinking is that the doctrine of the two truths is a powerful tool for coming to terms with some of the apparent (?) paradoxes that come up in deconstruction.
Most Indian and Tibetan Buddhist philosophers assert the law of the excluded middle, and their analysis of the tension between conventional, pragmatic identity and the ultimate lack of identity remains logical to the bitter end. It is the basis of their reductio ad absurdum approach to metaphysics.
I don't agree that the trace is nothing like the noumena. Richard Rorty wrote an interesting article called "Is Derrida a Transcendental Philosopher?" and I agree with him that he has a great deal in common with transcendental phenomenology. I agree with Rorty on little else!
IMHO the question as to whether the noumena, like the khora, is a 'construction' versus an 'existing thing' is specious - it relies on the very existential categories that it should be subverting. The whole of phenomenology always seems to spill out onto the ground of attempting to distinguish epistemic questions from ontic questions. To modify Sartre's locution, that seems to me to be the "reef of phenomonology".
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Re: Derrida's idea of Khora what do you think?
Sat, May 29, 2004 - 5:33 PMThe current issue of the Times Literary Supplement might be of interest you. In it, Peter Brooks reviews Cusset's "Foucault, Derrida, Delueze et les mutations de la vie intellectuelle aux Etats-Unis." Have you seen it yet? -
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Re: Derrida's idea of Khora what do you think?
Sun, May 30, 2004 - 2:01 AMI've read it.
It's a light, sprawling history of the American "postmodernist" academic movement (with a few pointers to its cultural and political aspects), and of the concurrent burial of its source-thinkers in France. Quite entertaining, although nothing in there is news. Philosophically, it's skin-deep; there is almost no exposure of the "postmodern" philosophers' theories, since that's not the point of the book.
I hope that it will be translated into English so that young Theory-loving Americans will no more suppose me to be "sooo lucky because I am able to study philosophy in the country of Postmodernism." Cusset's point is sadly clear: pomo is an American movement, and anything that might look like it in France has been banned by our own brand of conservatives. No Derrida and Deleuze for me at the Sorbonne; dropping their names in a dissertation is the ticket for a straight "E".
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Re: Derrida's idea of Khora what do you think?
Wed, May 26, 2004 - 11:07 PMWhen I saw the movie "Derrida," it became clear to me that Derrida is more of a poet.
Khora or place has to be posited as displacement because beings fill it. Khora has to be posited as differance because it is not in a radical sense.
I think Derrida is trying to get at the paradoxical nature of Khora. Consider this:
1) Every thing that exists has a place.
2) If place exists, then it must have a place.
3) But place can't have a place, therefore it doesn't exist.
So by what Plato referred to as "spurious reasoning" in the Timaeus, one must posit place.
Whenever I read philosophy these days, I ask myself, "What sort of life experience is behind what is expressed?"
When Plato tried to articulate Khora he was doing so reluctantly. In the Timaeus he wrote that in trying to explain the material world, we must be content only with an Eikos Mythos (Likely Story). His explanation of the material world seemed to be merely an excercise, a fancy, a reverie; and so mustn't be taken seriously; but rather as something neat.
When Derrida talks about Khora -- I'm trusting you on this point, mark -- I think the experience behind the philosophy is one that still wants to see paradoxes in the world. It is an experience that takes joy in using its history of philosophy to bring in Freud and Plato and somehow relate them together using Khora. -
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Re: Derrida's idea of Khora what do you think?
Thu, May 27, 2004 - 12:36 AMI like what you are saying. I think that he is trying to go to a different place then paradox. I mean the concept of paradox is really more of a logic issue than anything else. I think Derrida is trying to deal with time and memory in away that heidegger was suggesting. He isn't wanting to get trapped like heidegger. Trace seems more to me to get at the way in which thought and philosophy is alive and spills out beyond the text. The idea of the text falling apart as a self defined system and yet leaving something in the reader changed, is what I think no one else has really has gotten to. It isn't just a philosophy but a practice. I think that is a key part of it not being like Kantian or Heideggerian metaphysics. -
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Re: Derrida's idea of Khora what do you think?
Thu, May 27, 2004 - 10:34 AM1) Every thing that exists has a place.
2) If place exists, then it must have a place.
3) But place can't have a place, therefore it doesn't exist.
I don't see 2.
We're either talking about a particular place or place in general. Place in general doesn't have a place any more than any universal must have a specific physical instantiation. Does compassion have a place?
Specific places don't have to have a place any more than light has to have light in order to be seen. It is itself that by which there is sight.
I like what you said about poetry, although if Derrida is writing poetry, I'll stick with Dylan Thomas. -
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Re: Derrida's idea of Khora what do you think?
Thu, May 27, 2004 - 2:23 PMI think there is a disconnect. Derrida is trying to show how poetry, philosophy, science anything textual is suspect. Why is it that one text is able to tell us true things about the world and other texts don't. If language is metaphorical and therefore under erasure then all texts are under erasure and not able to stand as more true or representitive. The idea that language is able to represent some reality is niave. Foucault has done a lot of work on showing the idea of representantion is flawed. Since the origin is itself always receeding and is another form of interpretation. We run into Wittgenstein idea of reification. It seems anyone who truely believes in some actual word that is representative of the real is talking metaphysics. I look at george lakoff and his work on metaphores we live by and how we embody the world and even his great work falls to displacement. Let not get to the place we talk of "kicking stones pragmatism" Wittgenstein did a good job of showing that is a niave. Barnaby have you read Blanchot infinte conversations? You may definitely see him as a poet but much like Nietzsche is a poet there is real philosophy in poetry. No doubt Dylan Thomas is a great poet but he is trying to do a different kind of poetry.
1) Every thing that exists has a place.
2) If place exists, then it must have a place.
3) But place can't have a place, therefore it doesn't exist.
Number 2 is perhaps a bit of a problem Wittgenstein would say was a langauge problem. Taking a particular and abstracting a general. But the particular is already stating a general from the start. I don't speak in a vaccum it is the trace of the past that determines the present. So any particular is already imbued with a shared abstraction or it cannot be communicated to myslef or others. But from an understanding of the organisms and Autopoiesis all systems organize their world unconsciously. We have no way of knowing what is underneath it is filtered from the beginning. Maybe it is a bit of Russel's Paradox we are caught in here. But it is metaphysics all the way down.
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Re: Derrida's idea of Khora what do you think?
Thu, May 27, 2004 - 6:13 PMi haven't read the thread closely; and i'm not personally familiar w/ the concept under discussion. but rather than leave when i should i'm going to toss out a reference...
badiou's set theory; also agamben, who works w/ excluded/included paradoxes. also foucault/deleuze, in the concept of the fold.
the idea also sounds like "the middle", which was important for Foucault.
Dont try to read this one w/ logic. You have to think of it as a beyond.
cheers
adrian
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Re: Derrida's idea of Khora what do you think?
Thu, May 27, 2004 - 7:31 PMI have heard of both Badiou and Agamben. Can you summarize how set theory which obviously is based on some type of logic can show a middle ground. I don't think you are talking about fuzzy logic. I am interested. The little I have read on Badiou did seem like he was trying to show a way of determining truth in a non metaphysical way. I know he is influenced by Lacan who always has seemed to me very metaphysical and Levinas is extremely metaphysical.
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Re: Derrida's idea of Khora what do you think?
Thu, May 27, 2004 - 11:22 PMYou bring up very good objections. To answer them: Yes, compassion does have a place - in my hearrt. :)
We are talking place in general. Yes, place in general doesn't have a place any more than any universal must have a specific physical instantiation.
But, what is the experience behind such very good objections which you put forward? -
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Re: Derrida's idea of Khora what do you think?
Fri, May 28, 2004 - 10:03 AM"But, what is the experience behind such very good objections which you put forward?"
It has deep implications for the way I approach my life. I've been around the block on the law of the excluded middle, and I'm still walking.
These days I am not convinced that paradox is such a problem, or that the law of the excluded middle is not inviolable. I find that many counter-examples to the law don't withstand careful analysis, and for me that's an important point.
I'm not sure if that answers your question. Does it?
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Re: Derrida's idea of Khora what do you think?
Wed, March 9, 2005 - 6:53 PMChora is Plato's idea, not Derrida's. There's not a lot in D's chora essay that isn't already in Plato (though he does deny that it can be thought of as "feminine" - that's something I hotly contend in a recent essay, if anyone's interested).
Really, it's symptomatic of Platonism, a problem with deriving a universe of change and becoming from one of static ideality.
The question is, are we still in the thrall of Plato? -
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Re: Derrida's idea of Khora what do you think?
Thu, March 10, 2005 - 9:45 PMIs that a question if you look at the Neo Cons it is obvious that they are platonist and that the world is slipping back into it. Christianity is just a version of platonism. -
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Re: Derrida's idea of Khora what do you think?
Thu, March 10, 2005 - 10:04 PM> The question is, are we still in the thrall of Plato?
I can only speak for myself, but I have never once considered myself in the thrall of Plato. -
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Re: Derrida's idea of Khora what do you think?
Tue, March 29, 2005 - 12:19 AMWell first, I would suggest to read John Sallis' Of Chorology on the Timaeus (after, of course, reading Derrida's essay and the Timaeus itself), which would help to link D's discussion to the historical place and problem of its genesis. Second, I would ask myself why Derrida chooses this word at this intersection in the history of philosophy: obviously it is a retrieval of the Platonic myth of origin which allows for both an engagement with the origin of difference and identity and a simultaneous exposure of the weird "site" (neither fully mythological nor theoretical) of the origin. To think the Khora today, here, now . . . What does that mean? What does the unthought within Plato still hold in reserve for us? How are we to (re)-understand the very idea of origin, for instance the anthro-biological origin of language or the cosmological origin of the universe? What if all origins are chorological, what if all of them, in their naming, displace and unsettle and deform the effort to determine them happening in the wake of their "original" blossomings? To think with Derrida, one cannot merely use tropes of non-determination, but rather one must always think in a present which is always under deconstruction. Think, for instance, of the confusions which physicists such as Hawking get into when they wax theological and start talking about "knowing the mind of God." How is the lost khora both granting the possibility of determination and yet confusing all attempts to recover it as origin? How is the history of Plato's determination of origin both functioning and lost in the genesis of such confusions? To make ANY sense of Derrida, his words must be performatively situated in a culture marked by an essential forgetting of abyssal difference as "origin" and an obsessive need to cover over this forgetting with positive programs of ontotheological decision. Philosophy does not take place in a bottle. -
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Re: Derrida's idea of Khora what do you think?
Wed, March 30, 2005 - 2:43 PMYup.
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