Ok, so they were probably written at the same time, but... does anyone know which was published first -or were they published simultaneously (or if one was actually completed before the other, then which was written first):
Différence et répétition
or
Spinoza et le problème de l'expression
-both, it seems, were published in French in 1968... different web bibliographies disagree about which came first, though.
If no answer is easily available, can any of you recommend which to read first? I'm working my way through Deleuze in sequence (perhaps not a very Deleuzian method, but it's making reading his later books easier - he often refers, directly or indirectly - to his previous explorations), and need to read "Coldness & Cruelty", a few more "Desert Islands" essays - and then whichever of the two that I've asked about above.
Mindblowing, and all the more so the further I get...
Cheers!
Différence et répétition
or
Spinoza et le problème de l'expression
-both, it seems, were published in French in 1968... different web bibliographies disagree about which came first, though.
If no answer is easily available, can any of you recommend which to read first? I'm working my way through Deleuze in sequence (perhaps not a very Deleuzian method, but it's making reading his later books easier - he often refers, directly or indirectly - to his previous explorations), and need to read "Coldness & Cruelty", a few more "Desert Islands" essays - and then whichever of the two that I've asked about above.
Mindblowing, and all the more so the further I get...
Cheers!
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Re: Deleuze - which came first?
Tue, March 13, 2007 - 6:39 AMI'm answering this being totally unfamiliar with Deluze ;-) so only relating what i found on French sites.
"Spinoza" seems to be more of a collection of lecture materials, articles, and ideas he has discussed in prior works, and clarified here for this volume, whereas, Difference & Rep, appears to be something of a more novel presentation. Perhaps that will help you choose which to read first?
www.leseditionsdeminuit.com/f/index.php -
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Re: Deleuze - which came first?
Wed, March 14, 2007 - 4:22 AMThanks Kip for the leads... oddly enough, that page you link to gives the publishing date as 1969, although most sources I've seen say 1968...
Has anyone read both, and thought that one would have been better to read in advance of the other (I suppose this would render the publication order issue redundant, too? -
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Re: Deleuze - which came first?
Wed, March 21, 2007 - 5:22 AMHello.
I'm not sure how true this is and will check as soon as I can, but what I gather is that Difference et Répétition is a fundamental book (it could be D's PhD thesis actually) and that all his main concepts come from there. I've never managed to read it : it's one of his most difficult books, and you need the right philosophical training to be able to follow.
I tried reading the Spinoza which is not a collection of articles, but an in depth study of Spinoza's system, also very much a philosophy-for-specialists book, at least as far as i can say. (there is another much shorter and more accessible book on Spinoza, by Deleuze: "Spinoza, Philosophie Pratique", more like a collection of bits and pieces as there's a biography, a short presentation of S' philosophy and a lexicon in it)
In any case, i would definitely assume that D et R is the first in importance. -
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Re: Deleuze - which came first?
Wed, March 21, 2007 - 10:11 PMThanks Gerard,
From what I've read, both were dissertations: D&R was supervised by Gandillac, and "Expressionism in Philosophy: Spinoza" was supervised by Alquie. Two! Holy crap, that dude must be smart or something...
Yeah, I'm aware that D&R is one of the more difficult of Deleuze's works - I've now read everything up to 1968 of his (and had read Logic of Sense, AO and Pure Immanence a few times each over the last couple of years), and feel pretty comfortable getting in to it, looking forward to the challenge. Just wish I could afford to go back to university to study these books with a guide rather than slogging through them on my own, as I have been so far (although this gives me a better chance to avoid other's dogmatic readings of Deleuze a bit). As for the chicken-or-egg question (as it seems to have become) that I'm asking in this thread, I'm most interested in which *actually* appeared first (or, even better, which was composed first, if not done simultaneously), as, in reading his earlier works in order, I've come to see that they feed off each other to a certain extent, and that terms such as difference and repetition turn up well before the book itself. I'm pretty sure that D&R is going to use his Bergson studies, for example, as a springboard - which means reading D&R without having encountered his earlier Bergsonism would be much harder... And now that I've read what I've read, Logic of Sense will be far easier to comprehend when I get back to it again (1969) (much easier after reading Nietzsche & Philosophy, for example). Deleuze tends to assume that you've read his other stuff, and drops references to things (such as 'the dicethrow') from earlier works in his later works without really explaining then, so when you bump into these references suddenly without knowing from whence they came or to what they relate,a big "wtf?" cloud forms, and ten pages are lost... -
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Re: Deleuze - which came first?
Thu, March 22, 2007 - 9:51 AMI've done some research and you're right: they were both dissertations. And he wrote them both at the same time. Apparently that's how the French Philosophy Phd thing was (or is)structured: between a "thèse principale" (main dissertation) and a "thèse secondaire." DR was the thèse principale (I also remember now an article by Foucault about DR when it came out, presenting it as one of the most important Philosophy books of the time -or the 20th century- or ever, I can't recall...but it seems to be presented as pretty BIG)
I've never really had the feeling that you had to read the previous book to grasp all the references in the book of his you were reading (except when they follow as in "Cinema I and II and Capitalism and Schizophrenia for example) but then it doesn't necessarily bother me not to understand everything. Actually, I find that one of the great pleasures of reading D is to figure out what you can, while the imagination is busy trying to fill in all the gaps. it's very much like reading poetry sometimes. He once described his classes as a place where people (all sorts of people : artists, sociologists, students, etc...) came and kinda slept, then suddenly, something somehow concerned someone and that person would wake up for a while, then someone else would wake up, etc. i find that reading his stuff is a bit like that: i don't feel concerned by it all in the same way...
He's obssessed with certain figures, but they're probably also like poetic figures in the sense that they have a polysemic potential. the dice image for instance is evocative on its own, it refers to the Nietszche thing, but also to the Mallarmé poem (which i find outrageously difficult) "Jamais un coup de dès n'abolira le hasard" ("a throw of dice will never abolish chance") etc...
i don't really have the feeling that his work is to be understood as an absolutely coherent whole (and he greatly admired thinkers who suddenly altered their thought drastically) But you do get to a stage where the more you read and the more consistent some of the stuff is (in that sense I also enjoyed Badiou's reading of Deleuze which casts a really unexpected glance on the whole body of works).
And i've found that his oral expression was sometimes much clearer as it wasn't as dense. The've started transcribing some of his classes on a website (www.webdeleuze.com) but i don't know how far they got with the English translations. I was once advised to read a class he gave on the introductory chapter to Bergson's "Matière et Mémoire" which made a lot of things clearer (that chapter appeared as a crucial reference for all his work but was only really developed in "Cinema." so sometimes the answer comes later also...)
I really get the impression that in order to grasp stuff such as DR ands the Spinoza, I would have to read and grasp other things. I get the impression the most competent people on the matter wouldn't necesarily be the Deleuze specialists, but people with a sound academic philsophical background, people who really know their Kant and Hume and Spinoza and who can figure out where he really stands in his "own" field. (people who can also grasp the political, aesthetic, etc consequences nowadays of being a spinozist for example would also be nice, but that still entails the same kind of background)
Lacking that background, I still feel like a guy waiting to wake up at the back of his class (at least in the case of some of his books, among which those you're planning to read)
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Re: Deleuze - which came first?
Mon, March 26, 2007 - 7:51 PMHmm... the plot thickens...
I've just started reading James Williams' "Gilles Deleuze's Difference and Repetition: a Critical Introduction and Guide" - and he says that the Spinoza book "lays the ground for some of the most important arguments in Difference and Repetition and can be seen as part of the preparatory historical works" (3). But, on the same page, after having noted two pages earlier that D&R was published in 1968 (there seems to be no debate about that point), he informs us that the Spinoza book was published in 1969! If that is correct, then why would it have been published *afterwards*? It seems a bit odd to me to offer the world such an important text (D&R) and then make it wait a year for another book that contains information that would have been more useful to encounter before reading D&R...
Yeah, the stuff at webdeleuze.com is great, Gerard - I particularly enjoyed some of the lectures for the Anti-Oedipus period - they cleared up a few foggy patches for me. One of the wonderful things about reading Deleuze's works is that they are so frigging dense: when I finish reading one for the first time, I think I have a good idea of what he was doing - but then I go back to the same text a year later, reread, and get something quite different out of it, usually far more intense.
As for whether Kant, Hume, etc., specialists would appreciate D&R, that's hard to say - Deleuze famously said that with those he wrote works about, he mounted them and gave birth to some mutant, illegitimate offspring. So their appreciation for D&R might be quite dependent on how conservative their readings of their favourites are. -
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Re: Deleuze - which came first?
Tue, March 27, 2007 - 1:08 AMHello
Let's make one thing really clear: The expression D uses to qualify his relationship with Nietszche and Spinoza implies that he was mounted, not the opposite. And that he got a hell of a ride with Spinoza and didn't have a clue where he was being led; but you maybe right, maybe he did say that he had "the active role" (was it with Nietszche?) and produced offspring at some point, but i know he also put it in other terms, which i find funnier and more interesting on a philosophical level, and even more consistent with the rest of his work. (But his work on the history of philosophy is also quite academic even thoug its also very creative.)
I've started reading Dand R as I found a copy in the local library. You do get the impression that everything else he wrote since is already in it. But I also picked up a book on his relationship to the History of Philosophy which claims that the Spinoza is where the foundation of his concept of "immancence" comes from, and if that is not his most fundamental concept....
Struggling with D and R, i did find that the stuff I did not understand was definitely related to "technical" notions: there's a whole thing on the "extension" and comprehension" of "concepts" with "extension=1" and "compréhension=the infinite" which nearly drove me up the wall. I found relevant definitions on the internet which made it more comfortable, but still... The other reasons are that some of it is so paradoxical and weird that I my mind just can't figure its way around it stuff like "repetition is opposed to the law" or something down those lines...
I have to stop because another crappy staff meeting is about to start...which is disappointing because i was going to open the "in bed with Deleuze" chapter: "no sorry, i don't like it that way..."
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Re: Deleuze - which came first?
Tue, March 27, 2007 - 12:16 PMHi there,
Well, according to Tomlinson & Habberjam in their Translators' Introduction to "Bergsonism":
"In the 1950s and 1960s, it was writing about philosophers of this kind that enabled Deleuze to make his escape from the scholasticism of post-war French academic philosophy. He has described [in a 1973 letter to Michele Cressole] this task of escaping the history of philosophy as follows:
'My way of getting out of it at that time, was, I really think, to conceive of the history of philosophy as a kind of buggery or, what comes to the same thing, immaculate conception. I imagined myself getting onto the back of an author, and giving him a child, which would be his and which would at the same time be a monster. It is very important that it should be his child, because the author actually had to say everything that I made him say. But it also had to be a monster because it was necessary to go through all kinds of decenterings, slips, break ins, secret emission, which I really enjoyed. My book on Bergson seems to me a classic case of this.' "
-->note then, this was 1973 (i.e., after the bulk of his 'historical' acts of intercourse), and, while he seems to have most enjoyed fucking with Mr Bergson, it looks like he's admitting to having been on top of a few of the others...
Where does Deleuze talk about his being mounted by Nietzsche & Spinoza? I have not yet run in to that.
From what I've read about D&R, it's full of nested explanations/explorations of itself throughout the book, nonsequentially, playing on the need to pay attention to what he's doing (as opposed to merely saying) about both difference and repetition. So you could possibly read the chapters out of order... rather like D&Gs' suggestion for reading A Thousand Plateaus... I guess it's (in part) an attempt to break the reader out of her or his habit of unquestioningly repeating particular intensities, fixed realities, unseen patterns ("I must read a book from the front to the back", "I only need to read this once to understand it"); new sensations, new concepts, etc., come from experimentation... I can't wait to get to it! I've decided to read Spinoza:Expressionism... first, though.
Gerard, I see from your profile that you live in France - do you read Deleuze in French (I'm not sure what language is your primary language)?
Thanks for your thoughts! -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Deleuze - which came first?
Wed, March 28, 2007 - 2:33 AMHi there. My "first" mother tongue is English, but I arrived in France when I was 7 or 8 so I'm fluent in both languages. (my problem is that i tend to mix them up somewhat and end up saying things that sound a bit odd) i definitely read Deleuze in French and find it difficult and weird enough as it is in the original, reading it in English must be very strange.
The quotations i was reffering to might not be as sexually explicit actually: i may be mixing several references up, but i think I can put my hands on the Spinoza quotation, which actually uses a maritime metaphor "he's like a wind that pushes you from behind" (but then again the wind in the back is a popular euphemism for homosexuality in France) then he goes on to say that he had no clue where he was being driven and that Spinoza was definitely the philosopher that led him the farthest. I think he said something like "you had know idea where you'd landed before even starting to understand him" so you're right: understanding definitely isn't the point
(I think the whole point I was actually trying to make about this active/passive business was the idea that he was more interested in a thought process that was unexpected rather than one in which you carried out a predetermined plan.)
I can't remember where I'm getting this from, (probably "l'abécédaire" a video interview, coz i can see him saying this) but I think he was originally planning to "use" Spinoza in the way you described, ie, to push his own "message" through, while apparently carrying out serious academic work, but before he knew it, his whole "system" was blown apart by the process. similar thing with Nietszche, yet less intense.
Thank you for what you said about "other" ways of reading this stuff: it is very true that it doesn't have to be read and understoood from cover to cover, I tried opening it at random and it worked. (am even tempted to read random bits out loud during a dance presentation where we do stuff which involves individual dancers distorting a shared choreography through the use of chance operations. Feels appropriate somehow, maybe a bit too demonstrative and intellectual though: would have to be done with a lot of humour in order to be worthwhile, as a kind of joke.) in other words: somtimes it's ok to sleep in this class, perchance to dream.
i wonder how i would do with the Spinoza book now: I tried reading it a few years ago and couldn't make anything of it: I have too much trouble with the infinite "modes" and "attributes" and "qualities" of God, etc... So i've been stuck with the Ethics for years, let alone Deleuze's book (which, incidentally happens to be expensive and hard to find over here)
Ok, see ya
G
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